The Most Terrifying Emotion

Christine: 00:00:11

Hello and welcome to The Mirror Project.

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We are your host, Christine,

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Alexandra: And Alexandra

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Christine: one of the most complex

and heart stirring emotions.

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Joy.

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Yes, joy.

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Often seen as the pinnacle of human

experience, joy can paradoxically be

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the most terrifying emotion we face.

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Why?

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Because with joy comes vulnerability,

the fear of losing it, and the resentless

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temptation to dress rehearse tragedy.

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Today, we'll explore these themes

in depth, drawing insights from

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Brene Brown's powerful perspective

on joy and vulnerability.

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We'll uncover how embracing joy, despite

its fleeting nature, can enrich our

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lives and build emotional resilience.

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Sit back, relax, and join us as we

embark on this journey to understand

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and embrace the most terrifying

yet profoundly beautiful emotion.

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Alexandra: Before we delve into today's

riveting topic, make sure to hit that

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your favorite listening platform.

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before it slips your mind.

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Trust us.

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We're not getting started without you.

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Let's make this journey together.

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Christine: All right.

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Wow, Alexandra, we've got a really

deep topic we're diving into today.

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Okay, this all started with a

video that we came across of Brene

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Brown, where she talks about how

the most terrifying emotion is joy.

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And the fear of losing

joy can be so great.

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We lean hard into the moments of joy

usually, and She says, we're trying to

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dress rehearse tragedy so that we can beat

vulnerability to the punch, which I think

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is a really interesting way to look at it.

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And one I hadn't thought of before, but

what are your first reactions to this?

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Share the, share with the people

what you thought of when you

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first heard this from Renee Brown.

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Alexandra: Okay.

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So the first thing I thought

was she is absolutely correct.

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Joy for me is terrifying.

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However, I have never really thought of

the dress for heart, the dress rehearsal

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to beat vulnerability to the punch.

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So that was surprising to me because

I just never thought of that before,

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but joy really is terrifying.

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Even if it's something I'm

actively trying to pursue and

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like, this is something I want.

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You come to a moment of joy or I come

to a moment of joy and go, Oh shit,

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Christine: Yeah.

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Alexandra: There's no safety

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Christine: mm-Hmm.

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Alexandra: And then immediately

my brain is trying to go well,

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what if something happens?

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Well, this won't last forever.

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Da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da.

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So.

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Christine: Mm.

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Alexandra: That's my first thought.

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It's just she's spot on accurate.

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Christine: Yeah.

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I think this one I had to sit

with and in, in reflecting.

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Yeah, I agree.

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I think she has a beautiful sort

of, she has such a way with words

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and she's so eloquently put this

into words and in thinking about

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it, I guess, yeah, it is terrifying.

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If you sort of stop and think about

it, I think for me, when I've been

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experiencing joy, I've never missed.

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I'm not necessarily felt terrified by it.

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But that point about dress rehearsing

tragedy to beat vulnerability to the

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punch, I think is a, what a sentence.

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But also I in retrospect,

yeah, she has a point.

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We tend to Think about the worst

case scenarios in an effort to

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that eventually does happen.

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Okay.

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So Alexandra, why don't

you tell me what Joy is?

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And how does it differ from happiness

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Alexandra: Oh,

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Christine: for you?

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How do you define it?

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Alexandra: yikes.

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Christine: Because that's a

really interesting thought.

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How is Joy different from happiness?

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Alexandra: I feel like

joy is overwhelming.

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It's like an overwhelming sensation, both

in how you think about something, but the

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feeling in your body as well, obviously

more on the positive spectrum of emotion.

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Christine: It's supposed to be positive.

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Alexandra: I almost feel like

it's, Happiness on steroids,

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right?

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It's,

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Christine: you

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Alexandra: it's like a peak of an

emotion, like the pinnacle of something.

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But I wonder if I'm doing joy a

disservice by describing it as a pinnacle.

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but then are we not trying to beat

vulnerability or tragedy to the

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punch by saying it's the peak of

something and where else can you

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go unless I've just been looking at

that incorrectly and keep climbing.

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Christine: True.

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I think maybe it's, it can

be considered like a scale.

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There's like a spectrum to joy.

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But I'll let you finish.

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Go right ahead.

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Alexandra: Interesting.

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No, I was going to say, I feel like

happiness is very much like low level joy.

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And I, I don't mean I feel like

it's low level joy and it's

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like happiness can be felt in.

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Everyday moments from something very

mundane to something kind of spectacular.

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But the way I've experienced joy, I feel

like it's more individual moments in time.

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Not something that just like, I

feel joy today because I woke up.

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It's not like I feel happy

today because I woke up.

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You know, or

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something like I feel happy because

I've got a cup of coffee in my hands.

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I don't know that I particularly feel joy.

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Christine: That's fair.

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Yeah, as you were talking about,

I feel like being happy and

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happiness are two different things.

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Like happy.

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I think is because in my mind, when

we see joy next to happiness, I

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don't see happiness as an emotion.

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I see it as like a state of being.

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So like joy is an emotion.

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Being happy is an emotion, but happiness,

the person, like when you hear the word

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happiness, the pursuit of happiness

Being in a state of happiness, like

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Alexandra: is a state of

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Christine: it's like a state of

being but the actual emotion, a by

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product of happiness can be joy.

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, I think that's my initial

thoughts on that statement.

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What is joy?

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Joy is an emotion.

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Joy is something that comes

from a situation that you're in.

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I think

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If joy, if there is a scale to joy,

I think happy is on that scale.

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I think like you can't have

joy without being happy because

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there are two positive emotions.

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But I agree with your statement

of I feel like being happy.

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And when you are experiencing

joy, you are happy, but you don't

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have, you're not necessarily

experiencing joy when you're happy.

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If that makes sense.

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Maybe I need to reverse that.

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So like when you're experiencing joy,

you're in a state of happiness or

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you're happy, but doesn't, you don't

necessarily have to have joy to be happy.

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I

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Alexandra: Yeah.

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Christine: don't know if I was

just sort of digging my, my,

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myself into a hole there, but

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Alexandra: No.

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It made sense.

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Christine: but yeah, I guess

that's my thoughts on it.

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Like the differences between joy

and happiness is that happiness is

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a state of being joy as an emotion.

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And I define joy as

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is usually maybe something that I.

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I don't necessarily find within myself.

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I find joy in the moments when I'm

with my family or my friends or

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when I'm watching a movie that's

That I feel really great about.

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It's bringing me a lot of joy.

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I'm enjoying what's happening or

I go to or when I go to an arcade

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or a carnival and I go on a ride,

like that brings me a lot of joy.

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But it's not necessarily something

like I find joy within myself.

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I don't know if I

necessarily will say that.

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Yeah.

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Alexandra: What's interesting that

you're talking about happiness as

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a happiness, as a state of being,

because I know later this month we'll

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be talking about overthinking and

it's some time that sometimes I do

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find it very difficult to be happy.

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In the moment and be in a state of

happiness because I'm constantly thinking

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about what's ahead, what's happening,

like what's going to happen or, you know,

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chewing over what's happened in the past.

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So that is definitely something I

am working on and want to continue

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working on is trying to be in a

state of happiness more consistently.

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So maybe then joy will be less terrifying.

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Christine: Okay.

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Okay.

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I like it.

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All right.

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Alexandra, what do you think Brene

Brown means by vulnerability?

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And why do you think vulnerability is

necessary for experiencing deep joy?

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Okay.

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Yeah.

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Alexandra: I'm not exactly sure what

Bernie Brown meant by vulnerability.

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Cause I haven't yet read

any of her work though.

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I do have a couple of her books

sitting on my shelf to be read.

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But why do I think vulnerability is

necessary to experience deep joy?

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I think it's partially

taking down the walls.

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Taking down the walls that we've built

around herself to protect ourselves

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from tragedy to protect ourselves

from the loss of joy or happiness.

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And so therefore having those walls

in a sense, being a bit invulnerable,

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not being open, honest with our

feelings about what we're feeling, it.

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Kind of keeps joy away.

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Or it's we don't, we can't fully

experience that joy without those

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walls coming down because then

we're only experiencing a fraction.

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At least that's how I

would interpret it that.

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And sometimes being vulnerable takes

a lot of work for some individuals.

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So joy is already terrifying.

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And then you're saying to people

like, okay to be truly experience joy.

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You have to also have a level

of vulnerableness be exposed.

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No wonder it's so terrifying.

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Christine: Yeah.

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I think to the, to that, to the idea

of being like present in the moment

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to really be able to experience what's

happening right in front of you,

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like that it's similar when, with the

idea of vulnerability and joy, right?

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Like in order for you To truly

be able to experience it.

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I think you need to be able to let your

walls fall sort of Accept the fact that

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it may be It may not work out or it

may bite you in the butt, but at least

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you're taking that chance to be able to

experience something so deeply profound.

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Typically, you know, to my point

earlier about how it's not necessarily

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something I find within myself, it's

something I find when I'm with others

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or when I'm experiencing something

that in itself takes vulnerability.

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You have to be willing to open

yourself up to the people around

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you, to the environment around you,

to be able to experience deep joy.

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So that, that's kind of, I think

my thoughts on vulnerability

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going hand in hand with joy.

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But do you have any other thoughts

about how they're interconnected?

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Alexandra: No, not off the top of my head.

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No, I feel like we've covered

fairly well from our current

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point of understanding how joy and

vulnerability are very much intertwined.

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Christine: Yeah.

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Alexandra: Yeah.

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I think it would be very difficult

to experience joy without being

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vulnerable and open to that experience.

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Christine: Yeah.

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I mean, cause if you're not open to

something, you're not going to be able

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to get All you can out of something

because You're already keeping it

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at arm's length but how do you think

the fear of vulnerability affects

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your ability to fully experience joy?

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Alexandra: Kind of in the sense that you

want to insulate yourself from something

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bad happening, the loss of something, the

loss of that joy the fleetingness of it.

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I think also sometimes the fear that the.

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A moment that you expect to be joyful

is not actually as joyful as it is.

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And so

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I don't know.

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Yeah.

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Again, insulating yourself

from the what ifs.

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So

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Christine: Sure.

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Alexandra: I think,

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Christine: I think

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Alexandra: yeah, I think that

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Christine: people.

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Yeah, definitely.

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I think that makes a

lot of sense for people.

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I think also in a lot of ways,

this is my first time really sort

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of thinking about this stuff.

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I've never, I've not necessarily have

experienced fear when it comes to joy.

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Personally, I don't think, I mean,

perhaps I'll have to revisit this down

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the line, or maybe I'm yet to experience

something, but I definitely know and have

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firsthand experience, dealing with the

what ifs where I constantly overthink

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something before it's even happened.

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And sometimes that does keep

me from experiencing something.

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Alexandra: Yeah,

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particularly any sort of happy, the

happier emotions because that's all

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Christine: yeah, sometimes that little

voice in the back of your head is

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you're waiting for the other shoe

to drop, or you don't think you're

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worthy of what's coming your way.

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But you know, I think that's why for me.

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When I say I find joy in the

people around me or in the

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experiences I allow myself to have.

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Because that's a big part of it too

is allowing yourself to experience

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something takes, takes a lot and

sometimes there's fear wrapped up in

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that and that keeps you from experiencing

joy, but I sort of lost what my

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point was there in the midst of that.

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Whoopsies.

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that's okay.

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We can just move on.

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laughs

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Alexandra: That dovetails nicely into

the beginning of our next segment

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topic about fear of losing joy.

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So we've talked about the vulnerability,

the fear, how does that impact our

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ability to experience and be vulnerable?

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So, Christine, why is

the fear of losing joy.

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And if you can't get to

joy, happiness, so profound.

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Is there a specific time that you

can recall recently where you were

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afraid to fully be happy because

you feared it wouldn't last or, you

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know, just that the shoe might drop?

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As you mentioned

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earlier, How do you cope with losing joy?

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Christine: I think the reason why

it's so profound is because you

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don't have any control over it.

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Like when something

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Alexandra: recently?

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Christine: joy can be fleeting or

it's out of your control it's how you,

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it's an emotion, it's a reaction to,

it's something that's happened to you.

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Because it's out of your control.

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There's, at least for me.

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Fear associated with not having control.

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So I think that's why it can be

kind of profound and then from

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there you can't control it.

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So then you can't control when

it happens and when it doesn't,

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like when it happens to you.

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So then you're, then you can.

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Potentially constantly

be chasing after it.

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And so then it's, then can start

controlling you and how you react

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and how you move through the world.

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So I think that sort of can be I'm not

necessarily speaking from experience when

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I say this, but I think like just sort

of following that thread, that's sort

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of how I can interpret the um, Um, I'm

trying to think about a time when I was

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afraid to fully enjoy a happy moment.

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I might have to come back to that one.

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I'm not, nothing's coming

to mind at the moment.

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but to answer the question of how do

I cope with the fear of losing joy?

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I think.

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To the point of, it's

something you can't control.

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I accept that it's something

I can't control, you know?

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Like, I sort of surrender to that and

just I'm grateful when I do experience it.

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And it is so much, it means so much more

when I do get to experience that emotion.

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So that's sort of how I cope with it.

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I'm like, I get to that point, I get to a

point of, I just sort of accept the fact

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that this is something out of my control

and I just have to be okay with that.

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Alexandra: It's interesting.

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I agreed with what you said about why

the fear of losing joy is so profound.

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And you mentioned coping and the need to

be in control, but that we often aren't.

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And I think you're probably further

along in that journey than I am

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because I think part of me is

still like, I want to control.

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And I, as I mentioned earlier, I'm not so

well versed in great at being in a moment.

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So I think in a, Unhealthy or not

great way to cope with joy and

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will self sabotage in some ways.

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Like you're starting to feel, so

then, you know, maybe, like you said,

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waiting for the other shoe to drop.

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And it's not just waiting

for the other shoe to drop.

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By focusing so much on it, I

think the other shoe does drop.

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So then I don't really have to cope

with being joyful and then losing it.

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I just don't get there.

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And that is definitely, I think for me,

the first part to be able to, to get to

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joy is to give up a bit more control,

which is absolutely fucking frightening,

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: 00:18:23

Christine: Yeah.

324

: 00:18:24

Alexandra: even

325

: 00:18:25

though I'm constantly

shown I am not in control,

326

: 00:18:29

Christine: Yeah.

327

: 00:18:30

Alexandra: is really

trying to be in the moment.

328

: 00:18:32

And like you said, being grateful

for the moments while they're there,

329

: 00:18:36

conversely, in some aspects, I do see

where I have made strides, not to joy.

330

: 00:18:42

But to at least happiness and

even with just that happiness.

331

: 00:18:47

Moments of self sabotage that

short change the happiness.

332

: 00:18:52

So on that note,

333

: 00:18:55

Christine: Yeah

334

: 00:18:59

Alexandra: let's get back to

Brene Brown's comment about

335

: 00:19:02

dress rehearsing for tragedy.

336

: 00:19:04

So Christine, what do you think that means

and how does that behavior manifest in.

337

: 00:19:11

Your life, our lives.

338

: 00:19:13

Have you seen any common ways that

people around you or people in

339

: 00:19:16

general dress rehearsed for tragedy?

340

: 00:19:20

Christine: I mean, I think,

you know, people do it.

341

: 00:19:24

All the time and maybe don't even

realize they're doing it because they're

342

: 00:19:27

trying to anticipate people expect the

worst and hope for the best, I think.

343

: 00:19:34

In a sense, they prepare themselves for

everything to go wrong or for things

344

: 00:19:40

to not go their way or, you know.

345

: 00:19:42

They'll constantly start, they'll

start thinking about the what

346

: 00:19:45

ifs and the being in that state,

like you can start spiraling.

347

: 00:19:50

It's kind of an endless because

what is lead to the next?

348

: 00:19:53

What if that lead to the next?

349

: 00:19:55

What if?

350

: 00:19:56

And I think that how that can manifest.

351

: 00:19:58

In your life is

352

: 00:20:01

it takes you out of the of where

you are, where in the present moment

353

: 00:20:06

in that point in your life, because

you're time traveling to the future.

354

: 00:20:11

And it's like, well,

that hasn't happened yet.

355

: 00:20:14

So you have to stay where you are so

that you can experience so that the

356

: 00:20:20

experiences you're having now at the point

of your life at this point in your life.

357

: 00:20:27

can open up a whole world of

possibility for you to experience.

358

: 00:20:31

But if you're constantly thinking

about okay, if this happens X, Y,

359

: 00:20:36

Z down the line, then you're going

to miss what's coming your way now.

360

: 00:20:41

If that makes sense.

361

: 00:20:42

Alexandra: Well, And it's so interesting

that you're saying what if, right?

362

: 00:20:45

And that what if has the implication

of a negative connotation?

363

: 00:20:50

Like it's not even, it's, What

if this terrible things happen?

364

: 00:20:54

What if this negative thing happens?

365

: 00:20:56

It's we can't even reach what if

something absolutely amazing happens?

366

: 00:21:02

You know, that's so interesting

what you're saying that I was like,

367

: 00:21:03

Oh my gosh, like even right there.

368

: 00:21:06

Christine: I think for a lot of

people, what ifs are negative?

369

: 00:21:09

I think I have had moments

of what ifs being positive?

370

: 00:21:14

What if this, cause this could

be that, or what if, you know,

371

: 00:21:18

The sun comes out, I don't know.

372

: 00:21:21

And then I have a beautiful day, but

typically, you know, the idea of what if

373

: 00:21:25

is negative and I think people get, that's

a big way that is a common way people

374

: 00:21:30

sort of dress rehearse tragedy is like,

they think about all of the what ifs when

375

: 00:21:36

If you just take a moment to sort of, to

stop worrying about what could happen,

376

: 00:21:41

you could really experience something

beautiful in the moment you're in.

377

: 00:21:46

But what about you?

378

: 00:21:46

What do you, what does that mean to you?

379

: 00:21:49

Address or urging tragedy?

380

: 00:21:51

Do you have a different take on it?

381

: 00:21:54

Alexandra: No, I honestly think I'm pretty

much aligned with what you were saying.

382

: 00:21:59

Christine: How does this

behavior manifest in your life?

383

: 00:22:02

Alexandra: Definitely.

384

: 00:22:02

And the, the spiraling of the

what ifs on the negative end,

385

: 00:22:06

like what if this doesn't work?

386

: 00:22:07

What if this is, and so that

definitely happens with me when it

387

: 00:22:11

comes to joy or a lot of other things.

388

: 00:22:13

And then sometimes I get so frustrated

with myself that I'm just like, Fine.

389

: 00:22:20

I'm going to do it anyway.

390

: 00:22:21

But there is for me, that dress

rehearsal does happen mentally in

391

: 00:22:26

that spiral down of, you know, if this

happens, what if people don't like it?

392

: 00:22:32

What if it's not well received?

393

: 00:22:33

What if, you know, what if I fail?

394

: 00:22:35

So I think that's how, don't automatically

go towards what are the positive?

395

: 00:22:41

What ifs?

396

: 00:22:41

So I would say that's how it

definitely manifests in my life.

397

: 00:22:44

Christine: I'm trying to my defaults

when it comes to failure because it was

398

: 00:22:51

some, it is something I am so afraid of.

399

: 00:22:55

But failure is inevitable And also

failure can be a beautiful thing.

400

: 00:23:00

It could also be a happy accident.

401

: 00:23:01

If you feel it something, it

could be a happy accident.

402

: 00:23:04

It teaches you something about yourself.

403

: 00:23:07

It opens up a new opportunity

that you didn't even expect.

404

: 00:23:11

Or,

405

: 00:23:11

It

406

: 00:23:12

Shows you a new possibility

or a new thing for yourself.

407

: 00:23:16

So I'm trying to Disassociate or

separate the negative Connotation

408

: 00:23:26

With failure from like the actual

situation event itself and just

409

: 00:23:34

sort of be grateful try and find like

how maybe not grateful, but except

410

: 00:23:40

that sometimes it's something I can't

control and Yeah, maybe be a little

411

: 00:23:45

grateful for it because you do learn

from those mistakes or those failures.

412

: 00:23:49

Alexandra: That's so valid.

413

: 00:23:50

And sometimes that fear of failure

can even almost zap the joy out

414

: 00:23:56

of not failing at something.

415

: 00:23:58

Just the buildup to what if I do fail

416

: 00:24:00

Christine: yeah.

417

: 00:24:01

Alexandra: and you don't fail, but

maybe you don't do as well as you hoped.

418

: 00:24:06

That's already kind of coloring and

impacting how we experience joy.

419

: 00:24:10

Christine: Yeah, for sure.

420

: 00:24:12

I think another thing that I keep having

in my image, I keep having in my brain

421

: 00:24:17

as you're having this conversation It's

how we're talking about joy in the sense,

422

: 00:24:22

how we're, when we're talking about joy,

like I'm sort of seeing like a heart

423

: 00:24:28

monitor, like with the highs and the lows.

424

: 00:24:30

So you can't have the deepest

joy without having the lowest.

425

: 00:24:37

Some of the lowest lows that are personal

to you because then it makes it that

426

: 00:24:41

much more profound for you as a person.

427

: 00:24:45

And it also shows like the beauty of

life, because you can have these low

428

: 00:24:50

lows, but then have these high highs.

429

: 00:24:53

And if you are constantly just

coasting or flat, like you're not,

430

: 00:25:00

you're doing yourself a disservice

because you are not Experiencing

431

: 00:25:04

like the degrees to human emotion.

432

: 00:25:08

And why would you want to do

that for yourself to yourself?

433

: 00:25:11

Alexandra: I mean, Joey, I think is also

relative and I don't know that we've

434

: 00:25:15

talked about that so far in this episode.

435

: 00:25:16

It is relative to other

experiences that you've had.

436

: 00:25:20

I'm not personally advocating for you

to, for people to have many low lows but

437

: 00:25:26

having experienced some very lows in life

do give you a comparative point in time.

438

: 00:25:34

And a set of emotions and feelings

to which judge joy from then

439

: 00:25:39

hopefully, ideally, you can find

a little bit of harmony with some

440

: 00:25:45

moderate lows, having had those low

experiences to which find joy again.

441

: 00:25:52

Without the constant roller coaster of you

know, pitching forward in your stomach,

442

: 00:25:58

flying out of your mouth kind of thing.

443

: 00:26:01

Christine: Certainly.

444

: 00:26:02

Alexandra: All right.

445

: 00:26:03

So I feel like you've done a really good

job of kind of answering what the next

446

: 00:26:08

question would have been, which is how

does the fear of joy Losing joy influence

447

: 00:26:12

your daily actions and decisions.

448

: 00:26:15

But my next question for you really

is, do you think preparing for

449

: 00:26:20

the worst helps or hinders you and

your ability to experience joy?

450

: 00:26:25

Yeah.

451

: 00:26:28

Christine: ability to experience joy.

452

: 00:26:30

It keeps you, like I've said,

it keeps you from being present.

453

: 00:26:35

And I think like joy is such

is an emotion that you can only

454

: 00:26:39

experience in the present moment.

455

: 00:26:42

You can't plan for joy.

456

: 00:26:43

You can't pencil it in on your calendar.

457

: 00:26:45

Oh, October 31st, or I don't know

why Halloween popped into my head.

458

: 00:26:50

I will experience joy on October

31st, but you can't, you normally

459

: 00:26:54

can't pencil it into your calendar.

460

: 00:26:57

Alexandra: You don't go like nine 30

to nine 35 today, Tuesday and Friday.

461

: 00:27:02

I will be in a state of joy.

462

: 00:27:04

Christine: It, it keeps you, it's a,

excuse me, it's such an organic emotion

463

: 00:27:09

that comes out of where you are and also

464

: 00:27:15

why would you want to control something

so naturally beautiful, like so natural

465

: 00:27:20

that it, that's part of its beauty.

466

: 00:27:23

That's me.

467

: 00:27:24

What about you, Alex?

468

: 00:27:26

What about you?

469

: 00:27:28

Alexandra: I definitely

don't think it helps.

470

: 00:27:29

Christine: That's me.

471

: 00:27:31

Alexandra: It's very

472

: 00:27:34

practical though to prep for the worst.

473

: 00:27:38

I think in many ways that's tied

probably back to human survival.

474

: 00:27:43

So it's almost like we as humans and

people in our society and culture have

475

: 00:27:49

evolved so much that we don't necessarily

have to be in constant survival mode

476

: 00:27:55

of something's gonna run up and eat me.

477

: 00:27:59

You know, so we're not there, but Our

biological systems haven't evolved with

478

: 00:28:04

as quickly to not prepare for the worst.

479

: 00:28:07

So I definitely agree with you.

480

: 00:28:09

It doesn't and it probably hinders.

481

: 00:28:11

And like you said, it takes

482

: 00:28:15

time and dedicated effort to recognize

that pattern within yourself and to

483

: 00:28:21

try and unlearn to repattern a new way.

484

: 00:28:26

So yeah.

485

: 00:28:29

Although I think maybe in some

situations like, you know, adrenaline

486

: 00:28:35

junkies, Joy that you get from doing

really dangerous thing, preparing

487

: 00:28:40

for the worst might help in those

situations, but that's a very specific

488

: 00:28:44

Christine: an interesting thought.

489

: 00:28:45

Alexandra: sort of circumstances.

490

: 00:28:46

Christine: think they're

experiencing joy though?

491

: 00:28:49

Do you think adrenaline junkies

are chasing joy or are they

492

: 00:28:52

just chasing, I don't know, we'd

have to ask adrenaline junkies.

493

: 00:28:56

Alexandra: Yes.

494

: 00:28:57

Anyone who's

495

: 00:28:58

listening and you are in a journal, please

496

: 00:29:00

Christine: you chasing joy?

497

: 00:29:01

Or what are you chasing?

498

: 00:29:02

Are you chasing the adrenaline?

499

: 00:29:04

The rush?

500

: 00:29:05

Alexandra: could not a high be a joy?

501

: 00:29:08

so, I mean, Again, I think

502

: 00:29:09

It's joy is relative.

503

: 00:29:10

Yeah, I don't know, and maybe that

says a little bit of hindrance

504

: 00:29:14

might be healthy, but in general,

no, I don't think it, it helps

505

: 00:29:18

Christine: I think, yeah.

506

: 00:29:18

I mean, you know, prepare

for certain things, but don't

507

: 00:29:21

let it keep you from Living.

508

: 00:29:23

your life.

509

: 00:29:23

Yes, exactly.

510

: 00:29:25

Alexandra: Yeah.

511

: 00:29:26

Christine: Alrighty, let's maybe talk

about some strategies for embracing joy.

512

: 00:29:30

Since we both agree that preparing for the

worst can hinder you from experiencing it.

513

: 00:29:36

can we practice leaning into moments

of joy despite the fear of losing it?

514

: 00:29:41

Alexandra: Okay.

515

: 00:29:42

I feel like, again, going back to what you

said is trying to unlearn some patterns.

516

: 00:29:47

And I think the first step to maybe

not even unlearning, but trying to

517

: 00:29:51

re pattern is stepping back, like

a bit of an objective third party.

518

: 00:29:57

Let's say you're experiencing something

and you're feeling happy and then

519

: 00:29:59

you think, that little voice in your

head, those thoughts that come up

520

: 00:30:02

this won't end or this won't last.

521

: 00:30:05

Something's going to happen.

522

: 00:30:06

It's going to disappear.

523

: 00:30:08

I think even just kind of going,

I'm having thoughts of anxiety

524

: 00:30:13

or fears coming up around this.

525

: 00:30:15

I think that would be a

very practical first step.

526

: 00:30:17

If it's very, if someone finds

it difficult to go from not going

527

: 00:30:21

to experience fear around joy.

528

: 00:30:23

Kind of being like, Actually

identifying and noticing when it

529

: 00:30:26

happens is a very practical first step.

530

: 00:30:29

So then you can go, okay, this is

just fear or anxiety coming up.

531

: 00:30:34

It actually has very little

to do with the moment I'm in.

532

: 00:30:37

So let me step back

into the present moment.

533

: 00:30:40

And being very present,

534

: 00:30:41

Christine: Yeah.

535

: 00:30:42

Yeah.

536

: 00:30:43

Alexandra: which I have problems

537

: 00:30:46

Christine: Sure.

538

: 00:30:46

And, but also not beating yourself up

to when those moments perhaps start

539

: 00:30:52

to take over because it is a process,

you know, like we've both mentioned

540

: 00:30:57

the art of unlearning things like

that takes time and giving yourself

541

: 00:31:02

grace to acknowledge the fact that

you aren't perfect and that it's gonna

542

: 00:31:10

That in itself I hate the word perfect.

543

: 00:31:13

the saying practice makes

perfect or anything like that.

544

: 00:31:16

That's just setting you're ultimately

setting yourself up for failure.

545

: 00:31:19

Because there's so much you can't control.

546

: 00:31:23

All you can control is how you react

to things, and the choices you make.

547

: 00:31:29

Alexandra: And

548

: 00:31:30

Christine: no, go ahead.

549

: 00:31:31

Alexandra: As I say, and I feel

like practice makes perfect was

550

: 00:31:34

a mantra for me as like a child,

551

: 00:31:36

School, different things, Taekwondo.

552

: 00:31:39

I feel like I constantly

heard practice makes perfect.

553

: 00:31:42

And I really can suck the joy out of

554

: 00:31:44

things.

555

: 00:31:45

Mentioned that on the podcast

before, but I have a Peloton bike.

556

: 00:31:48

And so I take a lot of the classes

and I don't know if it's the

557

: 00:31:50

instructor, but a couple of them,

they say practice makes progress.

558

: 00:31:56

And that is such an important rewrite

for me of practice makes perfect.

559

: 00:32:02

One, it takes way much, like

so much pressure off of.

560

: 00:32:07

Needing to be

561

: 00:32:08

perfect.

562

: 00:32:09

But also realizing that progress

does not look the same for everyone.

563

: 00:32:14

And today, and even in yourself day to

day progress might be, I got on the bike.

564

: 00:32:18

I didn't like you did

something towards the goal.

565

: 00:32:22

You're like, I experienced

joy for five seconds

566

: 00:32:24

This state of utter joy

and bliss for 20 minutes.

567

: 00:32:28

And the next day would be two seconds.

568

: 00:32:30

I think that's a really

important distinction.

569

: 00:32:32

And when you said practice makes perfect,

it just made me think of that because

570

: 00:32:37

overcoming fear to embrace joy, it is a

practice makes progress kind of situation.

571

: 00:32:46

Christine: Ooh.

572

: 00:32:47

And then, how do you think embracing

joy builds emotional resilience?

573

: 00:32:52

Alexandra: I kind of want to say it gives

you context and things to pull on when

574

: 00:32:57

the doubt and the fear kind of creeps

575

: 00:32:59

in when you Can sit and be fully

present and enjoy when those And in a

576

: 00:33:05

future moment, if you, when, if you're

experiencing that down to fear, then you

577

: 00:33:08

can go, I remember a time when I could

fully be there and I was okay with it.

578

: 00:33:13

So it almost like it's a touchstone.

579

: 00:33:14

So I think in some ways that builds

resilience, but in a if it's okay

580

: 00:33:18

for me to share like something that's

tangentially related to joy this past

581

: 00:33:22

year I've really been working on health.

582

: 00:33:25

And I think I've, Mentioned before that

I had an eating disorder as a teenager.

583

: 00:33:30

I've struggled with my weight.

584

: 00:33:31

I've struggled with how I view myself

and I've really struggled with food,

585

: 00:33:35

knowing that food is something that

you have to consume to stay alive.

586

: 00:33:40

But listening to everything, it's

you have to cut your calories.

587

: 00:33:43

You have to do this.

588

: 00:33:44

So re patterning how I view food

and experience food to not rush

589

: 00:33:48

through it, to then not feel guilty

if I have something that's quote

590

: 00:33:51

unquote not part of something.

591

: 00:33:53

I've been doing so much

work this past year

592

: 00:33:56

That it was very hard.

593

: 00:33:59

I mean, even a year and a half ago to

experience happiness or joy in a meal

594

: 00:34:05

without then later Rethinking about it

with guilt, or I did something wrong.

595

: 00:34:12

I wasn't perfect.

596

: 00:34:13

So that kind of resilience this year of

going, okay, progress wasn't perfect.

597

: 00:34:19

That's okay.

598

: 00:34:20

But maybe my definition of what,

how I need to get to where I want to

599

: 00:34:24

be.

600

: 00:34:24

Is changing.

601

: 00:34:25

So that kind of resilience of practical

steps and to be able to actually

602

: 00:34:31

sit down and really enjoy a meal and

kind of experience joy of what you're

603

: 00:34:36

eating and tasting without some of

the other things coming through our

604

: 00:34:41

moments of going, I can do this.

605

: 00:34:43

I can experience this.

606

: 00:34:45

And then like you said earlier, when you

experience moments of doubt, fear, or.

607

: 00:34:52

Self beratement to just kind of let it

pass to not get sucked into that part.

608

: 00:34:58

That makes sense.

609

: 00:34:59

Christine: Yeah.

610

: 00:35:00

It definitely does.

611

: 00:35:01

Can you touch on how leaning

into joy can contribute to this

612

: 00:35:05

journey you're on and your overall

613

: 00:35:08

Alexandra: Sure Okay, so joy I would say

that it's still kind of difficult for

614

: 00:35:13

me when it comes to like health, fitness

and food to get into joy and stay there.

615

: 00:35:21

Because I do, there's a lot of

voices that are still predominant

616

: 00:35:24

of what if it, what if you fail?

617

: 00:35:27

What if you mess up so

badly and you go backwards?

618

: 00:35:31

But I do think that there's small

kernels of happiness will become

619

: 00:35:36

joy that kind of keep me going.

620

: 00:35:39

That it's okay the best example

I've seen of changing yourself

621

: 00:35:45

was something I saw on Instagram.

622

: 00:35:48

And, you know, people think

I'm going to change myself.

623

: 00:35:53

So whether it's I'm going to

embrace joy, or I'm going to give

624

: 00:35:55

up something, I'm going to become

this new, better version of myself.

625

: 00:36:00

They think, okay, I'm going

to stop my old habits.

626

: 00:36:02

And then it's, I'm me,

you know, I'm the new me.

627

: 00:36:06

And you're like, okay, that's

not really how it goes.

628

: 00:36:09

And that can be very demotivating.

629

: 00:36:12

When you're not seeing progress, but

really change is like taking a cup

630

: 00:36:18

of coffee, a cup of coffee, no cream,

no sugar, and pouring water in that

631

: 00:36:24

coffee doesn't get clear right away.

632

: 00:36:26

You have to keep pouring water and

keep pouring until it basically

633

: 00:36:29

ends up floating all out.

634

: 00:36:31

And it's kind of a sense of, You

keep putting into yourself the things

635

: 00:36:36

that you actually want to become.

636

: 00:36:37

So whether it's thought processes or

building resilience around joy, you

637

: 00:36:42

keep pouring that in, knowing that

all the old patterns, all the old

638

: 00:36:47

stuff, all That you have that you want

to change, don't go away overnight

639

: 00:36:51

and you just got to keep going.

640

: 00:36:52

And so I would say that's

probably for me and my journey

641

: 00:36:55

with food, fitness and even joy.

642

: 00:36:58

Moving forward is just drop by drop.

643

: 00:37:02

Some days it's a splash, some days

it's a waterfall, but drop by drop,

644

: 00:37:06

you keep changing, you keep doing

until that becomes your new habit.

645

: 00:37:11

Christine: Yeah, definitely.

646

: 00:37:12

Wow.

647

: 00:37:12

That's such a beautiful image to think

about is the idea of, yeah, you got

648

: 00:37:17

to continuously keep pouring into

yourself the things that you need to

649

: 00:37:23

make you, feel better or be better.

650

: 00:37:27

I really, really, really like that.

651

: 00:37:29

Alexandra: And it's super helpful if

you ever get impatient like me and

652

: 00:37:33

not seeing progress just to kind of

remember that visual, it is working.

653

: 00:37:37

I may not see it

654

: 00:37:38

Christine: Yeah.

655

: 00:37:40

Or the the saying my family

loves how do you eat an elephant?

656

: 00:37:45

One bite at a time.

657

: 00:37:47

One step at a time.

658

: 00:37:49

Yeah.

659

: 00:37:49

Wow.

660

: 00:37:50

Beautifully put.

661

: 00:37:51

Well done.

662

: 00:37:52

I love it.

663

: 00:37:53

All righty.

664

: 00:37:54

Let's talk about gratitude

for a little bit.

665

: 00:37:57

how does practicing gratitude help

an experience and sustaining joy?

666

: 00:38:03

Alexandra: I feel like, I don't know,

in some ways, this one's kind of

667

: 00:38:06

an easy question to answer and also

somewhat difficult, easy to answer, but

668

: 00:38:11

difficult to practice or application.

669

: 00:38:14

It is.

670

: 00:38:15

It helps in experiencing and sustaining

joy because you're putting your body

671

: 00:38:21

back in that sense of feeling that joy.

672

: 00:38:23

You're like, it's like you're

priming yourself for happiness and

673

: 00:38:27

joy.

674

: 00:38:28

And so that state of priming, if you

do it every day and really trying

675

: 00:38:32

to remember a moment intellectually,

physically, emotionally, what that joy

676

: 00:38:38

felt, you are priming yourself then to be

prepared for the next time you feel joy.

677

: 00:38:42

Christine: certainly.

678

: 00:38:43

Alexandra: Christine, what do you think?

679

: 00:38:44

Christine: Well, I think I agree with you.

680

: 00:38:46

It's by practicing gratitude,

you're opening, you're allowing

681

: 00:38:50

yourself to be open to what could

come your way in the future.

682

: 00:38:54

you're grateful.

683

: 00:38:56

Being grateful for those experiences

or those moments you're already sort of

684

: 00:39:01

bookmarking like This I like this feeling.

685

: 00:39:05

I'm grateful for this feeling.

686

: 00:39:07

I want to be able to experience this

again So you're you'll remember that and

687

: 00:39:13

sort of allow yourself beat to be open

for those situations To happen again.

688

: 00:39:20

So to your point about priming

yourself you're keeping that sort

689

: 00:39:24

of Being grateful is like you're not

like it's an act of acknowledging

690

: 00:39:29

something good happening in your life

691

: 00:39:32

So those things stick with you So I

think that's how practicing gratitude

692

: 00:39:36

can help in not only experiencing it But

sustaining it because then it's okay.

693

: 00:39:42

I'm grateful for this and I want

to keep being grateful So I want

694

: 00:39:46

this to keep happening yeah, that's

695

: 00:39:50

Alexandra: And I would say that

another way to, or a way to build on

696

: 00:39:53

that practice of gratitude is to not

just passively say, Oh, I'm grateful

697

: 00:39:57

for this thing, but I mean, write it

down, really trying to re experience

698

: 00:40:02

that when you practice your gratitude.

699

: 00:40:06

Christine: totally, I agree yeah,

whether you journal, whether you

700

: 00:40:09

just mark it down in your your

notebook or on your phone saying it

701

: 00:40:13

just becomes sort of a touchstone

for you to sort of think back on.

702

: 00:40:17

I like that.

703

: 00:40:18

That's a great idea.

704

: 00:40:19

It sort of cements it for you.

705

: 00:40:22

Yeah,

706

: 00:40:23

Alexandra: Certainly.

707

: 00:40:25

Any last thoughts?

708

: 00:40:28

Christine: a really fun thought

experiment and I think I would

709

: 00:40:30

love to do more of these.

710

: 00:40:32

I hope everyone listening

has been enjoying as well.

711

: 00:40:35

And I encourage you to share your thoughts

on everything we've discussed today.

712

: 00:40:39

I would love to learn more from all of

you and hear what you all have to say.

713

: 00:40:43

If anybody has differing

opinions, bring 'em on.

714

: 00:40:47

I'm ready.

715

: 00:40:48

I think that'd be really fun.

716

: 00:40:51

.

Alexandra: All right.

717

: 00:40:51

There you have it.

718

: 00:40:52

Lovely listeners.

719

: 00:40:53

We have to reverse the highs and lows of

joy and vulnerability digging into why the

720

: 00:40:57

fear of losing joy can be so paralyzing.

721

: 00:41:00

Remember leaning into joy is

like savoring an excellent piece

722

: 00:41:03

of the most decadent chocolate.

723

: 00:41:05

Sure, it will eventually melt away, but

oh, how wonderful it is while it lasts.

724

: 00:41:10

So let us commit to experiencing

those moments fully, without them

725

: 00:41:13

becoming a dress rehearsal for tragedy.

726

: 00:41:16

Thank you for tuning in and

sharing this exploration with us.

727

: 00:41:18

We hope our conversation has

inspired you to practice embracing

728

: 00:41:21

joy, even when it feels terrifying.

729

: 00:41:24

Next week, we'll be dishing on

another favorite topic of ours, life

730

: 00:41:27

changing movies, Christine, and I

will be sharing the films that have

731

: 00:41:30

had a deep impact on our lives.

732

: 00:41:32

You won't want to miss it until

then lean hard into your moments of

733

: 00:41:36

joy and keep living courageously.

734

: 00:41:38

Christine: Are you enjoying the

banter and insights we're serving up?

735

: 00:41:41

If so, consider tossing some support our

way through our buy us a coffee page.

736

: 00:41:46

Every bit helps in fueling

this passion project of ours.

737

: 00:41:49

Find the link in our show

notes or visit our link tree.

738

: 00:41:51

We're immensely grateful

for your generosity.

739

: 00:41:54

we wrap up, remember to hit that

like subscribe or follow button

740

: 00:41:57

on your preferred platform.

741

: 00:41:59

Until next time, let's keep

the conversation going.

742

: 00:42:02

We'll catch on the next episode