What is Bravery?

Christine: 00:00:11

Hello and welcome to The Mirror Project.

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We are your host, Christine.

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Alexandra: And Alexandra,

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Christine: And we are so glad you're

joining us Today we are going to be

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delving into what constitutes bravery.

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From what we learned about it

from history, to how we see it

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portrayed in film, to what we read

in books, either fiction or non

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fiction, to our thoughts on bravery.

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Join the conversation as we

discuss how we define it and how

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it has possibly evolved over time.

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Alexandra: Before we dive in today's

topic, like, subscribe, or follow us

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on your preferred listening platform.

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Go ahead, pause, and do

it now before you forget.

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Don't worry, we won't

get started without you.

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Christine: Alright, so, Alexandra,

why don't you kick us off by sharing

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what the definition of bravery is?

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Alexandra: Sure, of course.

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So the Oxford English Dictionary

defines bravery as daring, courage,

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valor, fortitude as a good quality.

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Not sure why that was in parentheses.

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But another definition I found is

courageous behavior or character.

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The word has origins in the mid

16th century from French Brevari

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or Italian Brevaria for boldness.

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So that is the uh, Dictionary

definitions of the word.

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And that makes me think of things,

how you kind of relationally

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define bravery, whether in reading,

context of stories or something.

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So, Christine, what do you remember

learning about bravery, either

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growing up, in history classes,

just whatever you think of.

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Christine: sure.

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So, the first thing that popped into my

head is Because I was, while preparing

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for this episode, I was also preparing

for our last episode which was about St.

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Patrick's Day.

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And, so I was thinking about growing

up going to Catholic school and the

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different icons that I learned about.

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The first that came to

mind was Joan of Arc.

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And then I thought of Anne Frank and

Mother Teresa, and then from there I

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started thinking about Nelson Mandela,

Gandhi, Martin Luther King, Amelia Earhart

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Alexandra: Mm hmm.

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Christine: and then someone

who I think exemplifies bravery

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today is Malala Yousafzai.

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and I've also found it very

fitting being in March.

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It's Women's History Month.

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A lot of the people who I've thought

of that came to mind were, were

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mostly women, but of course, you know,

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there's.

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male figures that also came to mind

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like Martin Luther King Franklin

Delano Roosevelt, Churchill, so

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those are, those are the figures

that were coming to my mind when I

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first started thinking about this.

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How about you?

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Alexandra: So, it's interesting when

we were looking over our notes for

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the show and I had read some of the

people you were talking about, I

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was like, I don't see Joan of Arc.

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And then I realized this at the beginning.

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So that made me think of that

because when preparing for this,

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I'm going to be so honest that

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I don't really, women did not even

come to mind when I was thinking

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about what I remember learning.

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Bravery was more quality or

characteristic attributed to males.

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And I'm thinking more like history

classes, men going off to war, being in

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the military, all that kind of things.

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And.

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Funny enough, when we were, as we were

talking about this, the first person

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that came to mind was, even though

Mulan is a fictional Disney character.

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it's based off

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of,

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A real person.

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And I'm like, that takes a

lot of bravery to do something

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totally out of the ordinary.

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At least my thought of that.

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So I love that you brought up literary

people, people who write poetry to

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people who have changed the world.

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And I love that you mentioned

Amelia Earhart being the first

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woman to fly across the Atlantic.

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Right?

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Christine: Yeah?

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Alexandra: wasn't, it wasn't

around the world, I don't think.

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But to me, that would take bravery, right?

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To go up in a plane, not as they

are engineered today, but as they

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were, you know, 50 plus years ago,

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I have, I'd be worried

about landing the plane.

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So that, to me, takes a lot of

bravery to be like, I'm going

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to fly up in this machine.

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Who knows how I'm going to land.

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Christine: Right.

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I also wonder, in the case of

Amelia Earhart, like, I don't

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even know if She would consider

what she herself to be brave.

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I think she just

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maybe I don't want to necessarily

speculate, but based on what I've

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read about her, I think, you know,

it was something she loved to

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do and she just wanted to do it.

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And, and today we look

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at that and it's like, wow,

that is, that is really brave.

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And especially doing something

like that at that time.

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And even today, I think a lot of people

sort of, when they look at women doing

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things, I don't know, maybe this is

something we dive into in a little

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bit, but how we define bravery for

women versus men, non binary people

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in the LGBT plus community, like.

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Is bravery defined differently

based on who you are, how you

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identify, things like that?

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Alexandra: I think that's kind of

the point of this episode, right?

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Like, is the dictionary

definition just enough?

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And before we kind of jump into

that, because I do think you brought

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up some really interesting points

there, and it's almost, I almost

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wonder if bravery is something

attributed after an action versus prior

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to.

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But, so we've talked about people, we've

talked about ideas that came up when we

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were learning about, you know, history in

school or what we were taught as brave.

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What, have you seen it, the concept

or the attribute amplified in TV

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shows, movies, or books that you've

read, watched, or listened to

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Christine: Mm.

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I mean, I was sort of thinking back

even further, too, than just recently.

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So if I haven't mentioned already,

I am a huge Film buff love all

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sources of, TV film reading books.

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So there was a lot to draw on that.

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I kind of in the moment was like, I

know I've read stuff, I've watched

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stuff, but nothing's coming to mind.

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But as I thought about it more, I was

thinking like, I, one of the things

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I love to watch our documentaries.

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So I love any documentary

where it's a first hand account

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of somebody sharing their story.

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And, in general is a wonderful

medium for people's stories

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to be shared more broadly.

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But in addition to that thinking

about things that I've read recently

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or watched recently that have really

resonated with me I think pertaining

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to this topic is Heartstopper.

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I, I actually turned

Alexandra onto this, I think,

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Alexandra: She did.

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I think I binged it in a

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Christine: Oh my gosh, I love it so much.

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I think I was scrolling through Instagram

and I saw an edit of some scenes from

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the show, and I was like, what is this?

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This is so cute and adorable

and I need to watch it.

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So, I found it and I Pretty positive

I watched the whole thing, maybe

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at least half of it in one night.

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And yes, this was when I

was scrolling late at night.

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So the fact that I then stayed up

and watched half the show in one

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evening is I was up late that night.

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Anyway but yeah, that's a show

that's really resonated with me.

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I also since read the graphic novels

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and.

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Alexandra: hmm.

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Christine: Very excited for

the third season to come out.

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I know that they have filmed

or are filming, so we, may

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be getting that very soon.

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But, how about you Alexandra, what are

some things that came to mind for you?

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Alexandra: So I had recently re watched

the National Treasure TV show on Disney

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Christine: Hmm.

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Alexandra: Which I really liked, and,

trying to think of other shows that

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have come to mind, but it was about

somebody doing the main character.

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She was an undocumented person

within, I think they lived in

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actually, Louisiana, New Orleans area.

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And, you know, following history and

clues that have been left for her.

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And I think in many ways it makes me

think of how often it is easy to do,

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to walk away from things that are hard.

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And sometimes that I think it takes

bravery to stick to something in the sense

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of whether it's a conscious choice of I'm

going to be brave today, I'm going to do

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this, or like, I have to see this through.

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There's something driving

me to do something.

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I want to follow my passion, like

you said, for Amelia Earhart.

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I think there's something in that.

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So, and that made me think of other

shows that I know Christina have watched

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Miss Fisher and Murder Mysteries.

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It's a fictional story about a, a lady

detective in the: 1920

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where that was out of the realm, which

makes me think of a show I saw on Prime.

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I don't know what language it is

originally in because it automatically

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dumped it over to English.

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But it was called a private affair

and she was somebody who was a more

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wealthy but sibling to the person who

was now running the department, police

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department where they were, and she

wanted to get involved and she read

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magazines that she had to illegally

import into the country to learn about

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like different forensic tools and stuff.

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So doing something in the face of, I don't

know, rejection or societal disapproval.

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But I think a character in a book

that really makes me think of

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bravery is a series that Christina

and I have both recently been

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hooked on, the Empyrean series.

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So the first book not Thread of

Glass, that's a different series.

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Fourth Wing, and then the, the The

second book, Iron Flame, and the main

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character, Violet, I just think the

way the author has written her in the

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sense of she is physically frail, but

that doesn't hold her back and doesn't

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stop her from doing the quote unquote

right thing to trying harder, and I

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almost wonder if courageousness and

bravery are inextricably linked, right?

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Because you, they're almost, not one

without the other, and whether they're

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a conscious choice or not, but those

were the things that first came to mind.

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Or, you know, so, or even stories

of females getting into sports where

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they were not welcome, areas of

culture and society where they were

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not originally welcome, and men into

areas that were predominantly female.

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Christine: hmm

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Alexandra: I mean, think about cosmetics

and more men wearing cosmetics now,

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which I think in some ways that

took a lot of bravery to, you know,

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not worry about what people would

say or even if you did still do it.

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So I think that's kind of part of what,

you know, What makes bravery to me.

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So it's

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Christine: mm,

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Alexandra: inspires me to

be try to be more brave

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Christine: absolutely,

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Alexandra: But what about you Christine

any other book series or TV shows

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that you mentioned Heartstopper and

your love of document Documentaries,

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but anything else that came up?

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Christine: Well, Maybe just to give some

examples, because this was popping into

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my head, I think one show that I really

have loved over the years that is in

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like the documentary kind of style on

Netflix is Queer Eye, which is I think

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a wonderful, has been a wonderful show.

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I know that there's some things

going on right now between.

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Some of the hosts, but aside from that,

I think, you know, I think back to when

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I first watched the first season and just

seeing the, the wonderful relationship

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between the four hosts and how they

entered somebody's life who needed help

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and embrace them and help them, whether

it was they needed confidence or Accepting

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who they are, like, learning who they

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are, just being a part of that

journey was really beautiful.

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And so, I just wanted to share that and,

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Alexandra: hmm.

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Mm hmm.

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Christine: you know, we encourage

everyone who's listening to please

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share books, movies, and shows that

they've, read or watched recently.

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Because we would love to, to hear

that and add it to our list as well.

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Alexandra: So we've already talked

about quite a lot of things that

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people that we thought exemplified

bravery that we remember from

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learning about to shows and books and

characters that we currently think.

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And we've already touched

on it a little bit.

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Cause we.

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brought up points we

want to talk about later.

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And I think this is the

perfect place to talk about it.

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Cause we're going to talk about an

evolving definition of what bravery is.

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You know, we heard the Oxford

English dictionary definition

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of the noun and is that enough?

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And I think some of this conversation was

originally sparked with as many of our

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conversations on this podcast usually are.

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A video from Instagram.

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And so, I, was it you, Christine, who

sent it to me, or did I send it to you?

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Christine: think I did.

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Alexandra: Okay, do you want to share the

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Christine: sure.

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Sure.

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This comes from a children's book

by Charles Mackesy that we saw from

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Yoga Will Heal, their, their profile.

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and the quote is the bravest things

we have ever said, asking for help,

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asking for help is not giving up.

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It is refusing to give up, which I think

is, It struck such a chord with me at the

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time because I was, you know, really down

and going through something and really

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it was something I really needed to see.

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So I sent it to

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Alexandra and she was like, well, this

is wonderful thing that we should dig

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in deeper to, to, discuss further.

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So I'm glad that we brought this up today.

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Alexandra: Right, because what we were

talking about previously was more,

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for lack of a better word, traditional

interpretations of bravery.

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And I love how this quote kind of

Almost turned that on its head, right?

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You think of bravery of doing things

without fear and still doing them or

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courage being afraid and still doing them.

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Usually in the context of doing

something, I don't want to say

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heroic, but wild, out there different.

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And sometimes the bravest thing

you can do is ask for help because

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I think today, culturally and in

society, we tend to see Asking for

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help as a weakness or insufficiency.

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And so people try to hide

it, but that's not helping.

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And so asking for help really does take

quite a lot of bravery to overcome saying

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concern of what people might say, think,

or treat you differently because of it,

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but then trying to either get better or.

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You know, you just need help.

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Christine: Yeah.

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Alexandra: So, what are your

thoughts of that, Christine?

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I know you said you were going through

a rough time last year when we had

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sent this, but how has it helped you?

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Christine: Well, I think at the time, and

I, and perhaps, I don't know if this is

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just me, but maybe other people, I think

when people think about what it means

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to be brave, people might tend to think

that that's something you do on your own.

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Like, you

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figure out, like, you persevere,

you, you push through.

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But, think.

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This is a really beautiful way of

actually looking at how another

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form of bravery is being honest and

vulnerable with yourself and also

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reaching out and saying, Hey, I just

need a, I just need help right now.

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And I think as human beings, that

is something that's so innate.

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In, in our DNA and that's, that's natural,

but based on, I don't know, societal

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norms or how you were raised or culturally

that was since changed and this idea

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is what is seen as abnormal or strange.

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When in actuality it's.

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It's, it's really how we're meant

to, to exist is, having those

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relationships and leaning on one another.

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And the, I, that idea of it takes a

village to raise a child sort of a thing.

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And that doesn't just end at when

you, you've raised that child.

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It's like you, you still need

your village to help support you.

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And when you need help.

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in certain areas and vice versa.

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You, you

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be that for, for, those

in your, in your life.

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So those are my initial

thoughts on this quote.

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Alexandra: Yeah.

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So, taking into consideration of

all that we've talked about and the

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video that started this all, how

would you redefine bravery then?

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Christine: I would redefine bravery

to be, to include vulnerability

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because I think it's a brave

thing to show people who you are.

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And by doing so, I think that that

goes hand in hand with taking down

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your walls and being vulnerable

and putting yourself out there.

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Knowing that, you know, it might not be

received well or you might A shot might

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be taken at you, or you may be made to

feel less than, but I think it's truly,

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truly brave to break down those walls.

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So I think that's how I

would redefine it today.

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How about you?

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Alexandra: Yeah, I like your definition

of including vulnerability and that

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to me, it's almost that a more

traditional definition of bravery

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has a very hard feel to it, right?

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It's very more in the context of things

that are, again, Outward, pushing energy

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outward, being very firm, heroic, kind

of having a very hard, rigid definition.

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Honestly, all I can think of right

now is like the Uncle Sam posters of

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like, we want you for the military.

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That's just what popped into my head.

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: 00:17:06

But I think what vulnerability,

310

: 00:17:09

Christine: Like a

311

: 00:17:09

Alexandra: yeah, and it, you know,

makes you think of all the things.

312

: 00:17:13

Thank you.

313

: 00:17:14

patriotic things, which I think

kind of gets jumbled into bravery.

314

: 00:17:17

Christine: another,

315

: 00:17:18

icon is, um, Rosie the Riveter.

316

: 00:17:20

Alexandra: yes, I think

it needs to be softer.

317

: 00:17:23

I think it needs to be softer and allow

space for whatever it needs to be.

318

: 00:17:30

And I think it's really

is, it seems so external.

319

: 00:17:33

I think that may be a better point.

320

: 00:17:34

It's, it feels hard and external,

but I think bravery is more of

321

: 00:17:37

an internal landscape and not

necessarily a conscious thing.

322

: 00:17:42

Like it's not like today.

323

: 00:17:44

Christine: How, how can I

324

: 00:17:44

Alexandra: I'm going

to do the brave thing.

325

: 00:17:46

Yes, it's a question that

Christine had come up with and

326

: 00:17:49

Thinking about what you had asked.

327

: 00:17:51

I don't know that it is

Necessarily a conscious thing.

328

: 00:17:55

I don't think it's totally subconscious

either but I don't know about

329

: 00:17:59

you, Christine, but I don't think

I've ever woken up and said, Hey,

330

: 00:18:01

how am I going to be brave today?

331

: 00:18:02

It's going to be, it's always

more of like, what challenge

332

: 00:18:04

am I willing to tackle today?

333

: 00:18:06

And what do I need to get there?

334

: 00:18:08

And maybe there's a bunch of things of

reaching out to somebody I don't know

335

: 00:18:13

for a cold call to make a connection

or an, like a networking connection.

336

: 00:18:17

Not the most comfortable

thing in the world for me.

337

: 00:18:19

But still doing it.

338

: 00:18:20

That's a sense of bravery being

authentic about yourself as

339

: 00:18:24

you were Alluding to earlier.

340

: 00:18:26

I think that takes quite a lot of bravery

But Christine, I know you had gotten

341

: 00:18:30

seemed to get a little very emotional

there when you're talking about Is

342

: 00:18:32

there something that you would like to

be vulnerable and brave about today?

343

: 00:18:36

Was there anything specific

that you were thinking about?

344

: 00:18:38

Christine: I think mostly this has

given me a chance to reflect on

345

: 00:18:42

just all of the different things

I've gone through in the past year.

346

: 00:18:48

In the past several years,

347

: 00:18:49

you know, I look back on that and

I really learned how important

348

: 00:18:55

it was to take that first step.

349

: 00:18:59

of saying, okay, I'm so miserable and

perhaps even a little depressed and I'm

350

: 00:19:09

struggling to find a way out of this.

351

: 00:19:12

I need to get to a point, it

was like I needed to get to a

352

: 00:19:17

point to say enough is enough.

353

: 00:19:21

I'm not able to do this on my own.

354

: 00:19:23

and turn to those I love

most and say, I need help.

355

: 00:19:27

And so I think that's

what was coming to me.

356

: 00:19:29

And that's why I was getting a little

emotional because, you know, it took

357

: 00:19:33

me a while to, to open up to you,

to my family, to my other friends.

358

: 00:19:39

And, you know, it was really a beautiful

thing because they could all see for

359

: 00:19:44

months how much I was struggling, but.

360

: 00:19:48

they knew I needed to get to a

point on my own to say I need help.

361

: 00:19:52

Which I think was a beautiful thing

that they allowed me to do that.

362

: 00:19:57

You know, I think instinctually

a lot of people want to jump

363

: 00:19:59

in and try and fix a problem.

364

: 00:20:01

Alexandra: Mm

365

: 00:20:02

Christine: if it's someone they love.

366

: 00:20:03

But I look back on that and it was

like, wow, I'm so lucky to have

367

: 00:20:06

all these people who love me who.

368

: 00:20:09

And not to say they didn't check in with

369

: 00:20:11

me Prior to that.

370

: 00:20:12

but they allowed me to get to

the point that I needed to,

371

: 00:20:16

to finally accept their help.

372

: 00:20:19

Because I think that was,

373

: 00:20:20

Alexandra: hmm.

374

: 00:20:21

Christine: that's another

big piece of it, right?

375

: 00:20:23

Like, I wasn't in a place to accept it.

376

: 00:20:26

Alexandra: During that time, did

you feel that you had to carry the

377

: 00:20:30

burden all on your own shoulder?

378

: 00:20:31

That you had to be the one to fix it

before you got to that point, or was it

379

: 00:20:35

just not even having the space to do that?

380

: 00:20:38

Christine: Well, I think, you know, it's

something I've always struggled with

381

: 00:20:41

is invalidating my own struggles and,

experiences like I'm, I recognize, you

382

: 00:20:48

know, the privileges that I am afforded

and, thinking back to, Just thinking

383

: 00:20:54

back to how I thought about life growing

up, which was have a roof over my head,

384

: 00:21:00

a family who loves me and supports me.

385

: 00:21:03

I don't have any reason to feel bad

about anything, really, essentially.

386

: 00:21:10

But, that's just not real.

387

: 00:21:12

Like, that's just not true.

388

: 00:21:14

You, you know, and Another piece of

the puzzle was living on my own for

389

: 00:21:19

the first time and stepping into that

adult realm with responsibilities.

390

: 00:21:26

And you know, I looked to, my

mom and my dad and just how, how

391

: 00:21:32

much I admired how they were for

me and my sisters growing up.

392

: 00:21:35

always there to listen to us

and help us solve our problems.

393

: 00:21:40

Like I, I, I don't know if it was, I felt

like I needed to do that for myself now.

394

: 00:21:45

But, I think another big piece is when

you're in it, you don't see any way out.

395

: 00:21:50

So

396

: 00:21:51

you feel like you have to figure out

how you put, how to pull yourself out.

397

: 00:21:54

But sometimes there's just not

a way to do that on your own.

398

: 00:21:58

And you have to go through, in my case,

I had to go through every everything

399

: 00:22:03

until I finally got to that realization.

400

: 00:22:05

I was like, Christine, just

ask for help for God's sake.

401

: 00:22:08

Just ask for help.

402

: 00:22:10

So, yeah, I don't know if it was

necessarily like a conscious decision

403

: 00:22:13

of, I have to do this on my own, but

it's like, just how I, thought about

404

: 00:22:17

it was like, I gotta figure this out.

405

: 00:22:19

I gotta figure out how to pull myself out.

406

: 00:22:21

But then I'm also the first person

to like, reach out and say, how

407

: 00:22:24

can I help those I love most?

408

: 00:22:27

Because I don't want to

ever see them in pain.

409

: 00:22:29

But, yeah, that didn't come to

mind when I was in pain, so.

410

: 00:22:34

Anyway, sorry that was a long winded

answer, but I appreciate you listening.

411

: 00:22:39

And now why don't we Run with

that and talk about and explore

412

: 00:22:43

vulnerability and bravery and how

the two linked or intertwined.

413

: 00:22:47

Alexandra, any

414

: 00:22:48

thoughts?

415

: 00:22:49

Alexandra: I think you perfectly

were describing that in the story and

416

: 00:22:54

situation you were sharing with us

that, and I love the metaphor you used

417

: 00:22:59

earlier about bravery and that often

people build up walls around themselves,

418

: 00:23:03

their hearts, their, who they are,

and it takes vulnerability to kind of

419

: 00:23:10

lower those walls or remove them in

order to be brave and move forward.

420

: 00:23:15

Because I think sometimes

421

: 00:23:16

I was thinking of comic books just

hopped in my head, but you think of

422

: 00:23:20

vulnerability, somebody who's, you

know, kryptonite, it's their weakness.

423

: 00:23:24

But I almost don't, I think

that does a disservice to the

424

: 00:23:27

word vulnerability, right?

425

: 00:23:28

And what it is.

426

: 00:23:29

I don't know that

vulnerability is a weakness.

427

: 00:23:31

It's kind of being honest about

who you are and where you're at.

428

: 00:23:35

Christine: It's a strength.

429

: 00:23:36

Alexandra: yeah, and I think it's all,

it's the first part of bravery, right?

430

: 00:23:39

it's almost like vulnerability.

431

: 00:23:40

If you think about being authentic about

who you are or what you're going through

432

: 00:23:48

to say, Hey, I'm really struggling.

433

: 00:23:51

And then it's very much a brave

step to do something about it.

434

: 00:23:54

So I think those are

almost inextricably linked.

435

: 00:23:57

The vulnerability may come a little bit

before bravery and that You need both,

436

: 00:24:03

right, in order to do something and, you

know, in the context of trying something

437

: 00:24:08

new or sharing who you are authentically

with somebody people, friends, family,

438

: 00:24:15

being vulnerable and saying this is

what I am, knowing that you could be

439

: 00:24:18

rejected but still doing it, is taking

a very brave step, and I think that they

440

: 00:24:21

are, have a very important place in the

world today and hopefully going forward.

441

: 00:24:29

you know, think of generations past

in the the states like the, the Great

442

: 00:24:32

Depression where a lot of people kept

things in, but now we can talk more

443

: 00:24:38

openly about different mental health

conditions, which wouldn't have been

444

: 00:24:42

talked about, which I think is brave.

445

: 00:24:44

Through counseling or therapy, not.

446

: 00:24:47

Only through friends or stuffing

it inside is very important.

447

: 00:24:52

And I think I've mentioned on the

podcast before that I do go to

448

: 00:24:56

therapy and sometimes I have to be

like, this is a place where I can be

449

: 00:24:59

vulnerable and I do have to open up.

450

: 00:25:01

And, what's

451

: 00:25:03

Christine: think.

452

: 00:25:03

Alexandra: being here?

453

: 00:25:04

Yeah.

454

: 00:25:05

Yeah.

455

: 00:25:07

Can you just tell me what you

want to hear, or your therapist,

456

: 00:25:11

what you think they want

457

: 00:25:12

to hear?

458

: 00:25:13

Like, kind of have to get down into

the nitty gritty, the unpretty side.

459

: 00:25:17

That's my therapist likes to say,

pouring the hydrogen peroxide on an

460

: 00:25:20

open wound so that it can bubble.

461

: 00:25:22

Yes.

462

: 00:25:25

Christine: Yeah, no, I love what I

love all the points you're making.

463

: 00:25:27

And actually, as you were sharing those,

those thoughts on this, I started thinking

464

: 00:25:32

about, I don't think I would ever use

the word bravery to describe myself.

465

: 00:25:37

It's a word that I, oh, I think

about, like, you know, I hear how

466

: 00:25:42

somebody went through something and

persevered and overcame it, or, you

467

: 00:25:46

know, looking at, looking at these,

these figures in history, like,

468

: 00:25:50

Alexandra: Mm

469

: 00:25:50

Christine: I don't think it's a

term I would use to describe myself.

470

: 00:25:54

And I actually mentioned to Alexandra

before we started recording this episode,

471

: 00:25:59

like, anytime I had, somebody had

expressed that they thought I was brave.

472

: 00:26:05

I always sort of felt like a

little uncomfortable with the idea.

473

: 00:26:08

And I think that's something

I want to dig deeper on.

474

: 00:26:12

I don't necessarily have an answer yet

475

: 00:26:14

as to why I feel that way, but I

don't know what I would love to

476

: 00:26:17

hear those from you listening.

477

: 00:26:20

What what are your thoughts on this?

478

: 00:26:22

And Alexandra, I'd love

to hear your thoughts.

479

: 00:26:23

Like, do you use bravery

to define yourself?

480

: 00:26:27

Or do you.

481

: 00:26:28

I don't know.

482

: 00:26:29

Alexandra: Mm hmm.

483

: 00:26:30

Christine: a little self,

is that self indulgent?

484

: 00:26:32

I don't know if that's the

right word, or is that like,

485

: 00:26:34

Alexandra: Almost self

aggrandizement, like,

486

: 00:26:36

Christine: Yeah, right, but, but also

you don't want to, but also I don't

487

: 00:26:40

want to invalidate anything that

I have overcome, but I don't know.

488

: 00:26:45

That's something

489

: 00:26:46

to sit in for a little bit and

feel uncomfortable about and feel

490

: 00:26:49

why, why do we feel that way?

491

: 00:26:51

Alexandra: I think I would definitely

say I have moments of courage and I, I,

492

: 00:26:55

Don't recall anyone ever saying I was

brave and I, I can kind of understand

493

: 00:26:58

your reaction, Christina, feeling

Uncomfortable with it because it is always

494

: 00:27:02

something used to describe somebody else,

495

: 00:27:04

Christine: Yeah.

496

: 00:27:05

Alexandra: me.

497

: 00:27:05

Christine: and you think about like

moments of history, decades ago, centuries

498

: 00:27:10

ago, but like in the moment, somebody

saying that to you, it might just be like

499

: 00:27:16

right after or a couple weeks, months,

500

: 00:27:19

years.

501

: 00:27:19

Like I, it still, it might feel a

little too fresh for, for me to consider

502

: 00:27:24

that to be brave, but I don't know.

503

: 00:27:26

Alexandra: Yeah, it's like

bravery as Traditionally defined.

504

: 00:27:31

It's almost like it takes so much

importance, right, to be, to be brave.

505

: 00:27:35

Like there's, there's so much

and then like if I do something,

506

: 00:27:38

I'm like, yeah, you know.

507

: 00:27:39

Everyone can do it.

508

: 00:27:40

it's

509

: 00:27:40

Christine: Well, it's like, it's just

what I had to do to get through, right?

510

: 00:27:44

Like I just

511

: 00:27:45

had, I needed to do it.

512

: 00:27:46

Otherwise I would just be, be stuck there.

513

: 00:27:53

Alexandra: Just, you know,

514

: 00:27:57

and I was thinking back to, cause I know

we want to talk about like, how are we

515

: 00:28:01

going to be brave going forward based on

all this conversation and to your point of

516

: 00:28:06

Do people wake up and ask that question?

517

: 00:28:07

How, how am I going to be brave today?

518

: 00:28:09

And well, it's true that I've

never woken up and gone, Oh, today,

519

: 00:28:13

how's Alexandra going to be brave?

520

: 00:28:15

I do think in moments I'll think of

characters in stories, fictional stories

521

: 00:28:21

and people in history that I admire

and kind of go, for example, what would

522

: 00:28:26

Violet and You know, fourth wing do

in this situation because, you know,

523

: 00:28:31

to me in those books and stories, even

though they're all fictional, they're

524

: 00:28:34

doing something important, right?

525

: 00:28:35

And like, you can kind of tell

that through the arc of the story.

526

: 00:28:37

You're like, okay, something major

is going to happen, but in day to day

527

: 00:28:41

life, I don't necessarily think that.

528

: 00:28:43

So I can go after something.

529

: 00:28:46

Oh, how would have this

character done that?

530

: 00:28:48

Or how would have X person

in history do something.

531

: 00:28:52

But it's not something that I ask

myself every time, but I think there's

532

: 00:28:55

a couple moments like, ah, I, I could

have done something a little differently.

533

: 00:28:59

What would this person do?

534

: 00:29:01

And maybe how can I model that next

535

: 00:29:03

time?

536

: 00:29:03

So Christine, what about you?

537

: 00:29:05

how are you going to think

about bravery and going forward?

538

: 00:29:07

Christine: Yeah, I think I need to

sit with this for a little bit because

539

: 00:29:10

based on what we were just talking

about, I think I need to sit with

540

: 00:29:13

why I feel uncomfortable with the

thought of bravery and try and figure

541

: 00:29:18

out what that really means for me.

542

: 00:29:20

I think also something I can't

necessarily speak on it, but something

543

: 00:29:24

that I was thinking about and then

mentioned to Alexandra was that

544

: 00:29:28

there's also a, you know, a part of

this that how do we define bravery for

545

: 00:29:33

what people are going through today?

546

: 00:29:36

In, in the present moment, because we've

been talking about the idea of bravery,

547

: 00:29:40

like in the context of history or with

there being like a significant amount of

548

: 00:29:44

time that has passed for those figures

that we consider to exemplify bravery.

549

: 00:29:49

But I think something

550

: 00:29:50

I'd, I'd love to sit with for a bit is

how we can identify bravery, not only

551

: 00:29:55

today, But in the present moments, and

perhaps this is something we, Alexandra

552

: 00:30:01

and I, we think about more of how we can

showcase vulnerability and bravery today.

553

: 00:30:07

And if, there's anybody listening

who feels particularly moved to share

554

: 00:30:11

their story, their experiences because

there's things we will never be able to

555

: 00:30:15

experience, but You know, on our quest

to, create a safe, open place for people.

556

: 00:30:21

I'd really encourage that because,

557

: 00:30:23

Alexandra: hmm.

558

: 00:30:23

Definitely.

559

: 00:30:25

Christine: exactly.

560

: 00:30:26

Alexandra: It has been such an interesting

and very pensive discussion today from

561

: 00:30:30

the etymology of the word bravery to

the more classical interpretation of

562

: 00:30:33

what bravery is through the exploration

of its place in the modern world.

563

: 00:30:37

We have discussed quite a lot today.

564

: 00:30:39

In our summation, much like most of

the definition of ideals from the past,

565

: 00:30:43

concepts like bravery and vulnerability

and courage, among others, must undergo

566

: 00:30:48

constant cycles of metamorphosis to

meet the needs of the modern world

567

: 00:30:52

and the needs of future generations.

568

: 00:30:54

We want to hear your

thoughts on the subject.

569

: 00:30:56

How would you define these concepts?

570

: 00:30:58

Are there other concepts you would

like us to look into and redefine?

571

: 00:31:01

Leave us a comment on our Instagram post

for this episode to share your thoughts

572

: 00:31:04

or stories and join the conversation.

573

: 00:31:07

Join us next week as we discuss the

worlds books have created for us.

574

: 00:31:10

See you then!

575

: 00:31:12

Christine: Enjoying the

conversations we're having and

576

: 00:31:14

the topics we're discussing?

577

: 00:31:15

Consider supporting us through

our Buy Us a Coffee page.

578

: 00:31:18

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creating this podcast we love so much.

579

: 00:31:22

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580

: 00:31:24

Before we end, don't forget to

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581

: 00:31:28

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582

: 00:31:29

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